Legislature(1997 - 1998)
03/25/1997 03:13 PM House HES
| Audio | Topic |
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL
SERVICES STANDING COMMITTEE
March 25, 1997
3:13 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Con Bunde, Chairman
Representative Joe Green, Vice Chairman
Representative Al Vezey
Representative Brian Porter
Representative Fred Dyson
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative J. Allen Kemplen
Representative Tom Brice
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 158
"An Act relating to attendance at a public school on a part-time
basis."
- MOVED HB 158 OUT OF COMMITTEE
*HOUSE BILL NO. 170
"An Act relating to interference with the rights of physically and
mentally challenged persons; and relating to service animals during
their training period."
- HEARD AND HELD
*HOUSE BILL NO. 197
"An Act relating to libraries."
- HEARD AND HELD
*HOUSE BILL NO. 153
"An Act relating to the eligibility of aliens for state public
assistance and medical assistance programs affected by federal
welfare reform legislation; and providing for an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 158
SHORT TITLE: RIGHT TO ATTEND SCHOOL ON PART-TIME BASIS
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) DYSON,Austerman,Ogan,Kohring,Vezey
JRN-DATE JRN-DATE ACTION
02/25/97 465 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
02/25/97 465 (H) HES, FINANCE
03/10/97 618 (H) COSPONSOR(S): AUSTERMAN
03/13/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
03/13/97 (H) MINUTE(HES)
03/14/97 678 (H) COSPONSOR(S): OGAN, KOHRING, VEZEY
03/18/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
03/18/97 (H) MINUTE(HES)
03/20/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
03/20/97 (H) MINUTE(HES)
03/25/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
BILL: HB 170
SHORT TITLE: PHYS/MENTALLY CHALLENGED/ SERVICE ANIMALS
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) BRICE
JRN-DATE JRN-DATE ACTION
03/05/97 545 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
03/05/97 545 (H) HES, JUDICIARY, FINANCE
03/25/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
BILL: HB 197
SHORT TITLE: PUBLIC LIBRARIES
SPONSOR(S): HEALTH, EDUCATION & SOCIAL SERVICES BY REQUEST
JRN-DATE JRN-DATE ACTION
03/14/97 668 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
03/14/97 668 (H) HES
03/25/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
BILL: HB 153
SHORT TITLE: ALIENS AND ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS
SPONSOR(S): RULES BY REQUEST OF THE GOVERNOR
JRN-DATE JRN-DATE ACTION
02/24/97 442 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
02/24/97 442 (H) STATE AFFAIRS, HES, FINANCE
02/24/97 442 (H) 3 FISCAL NOTES (DHSS)
02/24/97 442 (H) 2 ZERO FISCAL NOTES (DHSS)
02/24/97 442 (H) GOVERNOR'S TRANSMITTAL LETTER
03/11/97 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
03/11/97 (H) MINUTE(STA)
03/13/97 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
03/15/97 (H) STA AT 11:00 AM CAPITOL 102
03/17/97 690 (H) STA RPT 4DP 2NR
03/17/97 690 (H) DP: JAMES, ELTON, BERKOWITZ, DYSON
03/17/97 690 (H) NR: HODGINS, VEZEY
03/17/97 690 (H) 3 FNS (DHSS) 2/24/97
03/17/97 690 (H) 2 ZERO FNS (DHSS) 2/24/97
03/17/97 690 (H) REFERRED TO HES
03/25/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
WITNESS REGISTER
TRACY ASHE, Legislative Intern
to Representative Brice
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 426
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-3466
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented sponsor statement on HB 170
RAE A. BAGGEN
5311 Halibut Point Road
Sitka, Alaska 99835
Telephone: (907) 747-4742
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on CSHB 170(HES)
VELMA PAZAR
410 Lake Street
Sitka, Alaska 99835
Telephone: No number given
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on CSHB 170(HES)
ROGER HANSEN
1887 Southern Avenue
Fairbanks, Alaska 99709
Telephone: (907) 457-5816
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on CSHB 170(HES)
SUZANNE PRICE
P.O. Box 84951
Fairbanks, Alaska 99708
Telephone: (907) 452-1575
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on CSHB 170(HES)
LINDA ATHONS, Coordinator
Alaska Guide Dogs Puppy Program
34824 K-Beach Road
Soldotna, Alaska 99669
Telephone: (907) 262-5824
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on CSHB 170(HES)
RUBY SCHMIDTBAUER
Alaska Guide Dogs Puppy Program
P.O. Box 306
Ninilchik, Alaska 99639
Telephone: (907) 567-3691
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on CSHB 170(HES)
GEORGE SMITH, Deputy Director
Division of Libraries, Archives and Museums
Department of Education
P.O. Box 110571
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0571
Telephone: (907) 465-2910
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 197
JAY LIVEY, Deputy Commissioner
Office of the Commissioner
Department of Health and Social Services
P.O. Box 110601
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0601
Telephone: (907) 465-3030
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 153
CHRIS ASHENBRENNER, Policy and Program Development
Division of Public Assistance
Department of Health and Social Services
P.O. Box 110640
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0640
Telephone: (907) 465-2339
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 153
KRISTEN BOMENGEN, Assistant Attorney General
Human Services Section
Civil Division
Department of Law
P.O. Box 110300
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0300
Telephone: (907) 465-3600
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 153
SUZANNE GOODRICH, Executive Director
Catholic Social Services
225 Cordova Street
Anchorage, Alaska 99501
Telephone: (907) 277-2554
POSITION STATEMENT: Was available for questions via teleconference
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 97-23, SIDE A
Number 0000
CHAIRMAN CON BUNDE called the House Health, Education and Social
Services Standing Committee meeting to order at 3:13 p.m. Members
present at the call to order were Representatives Bunde, Vezey,
Porter and Dyson. Representative Green joined the committee
meeting at 3:40 p.m. Members absent were Representatives Kemplen
and Brice. This meeting was teleconference to Sitka, Nome, Kenai,
Homer, Glenallen, Anchorage and Fairbanks.
HB 158 - RIGHT TO ATTEND SCHOOL ON PART-TIME BASIS
Number 0020
CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced the first item on the agenda was HB 158,
"An Act relating to attendance at a public school on a part-time
basis."
REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON made a motion to rescind the committee's
action in adopting Amendment 1 at the last meeting. Hearing no
objection it was so moved.
Number 0042
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON made a motion to move HB 158 out of committee
with individual recommendations and zero fiscal note. Hearing no
objection HB 158 was moved out of the House Health, Education and
Social Services Standing Committee.
HB 170 - PHYS/MENTALLY CHALLENGED/ SERVICE ANIMALS
Number 0100
CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced the next item on the agenda was HB 170,
"An Act relating to interference with the rights of physically and
mentally challenged persons; and relating to service animals during
their training period."
Number 0153
TRACY ASHE, Legislative Intern to Representative Brice, said HB 170
is an act relating to interference of the rights of physically and
mentally challenged persons in regards to training service animals.
Although the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) allows service
animals into public establishments, too often young service animals
are turned away from these establishments due to the arbitrary
nature of the existing law. The bill extends this law to include
young animals in training. Service animals perform functions and
tasks that people with a disability cannot perform for themselves.
These young animals need the same exposure as trained service
animals if they are expected to perform these tasks.
Number 0242
REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN PORTER clarified that these dogs in training
would be with trainers in these public places.
Number 0260
MS. ASHE said normally the dogs are accompanied by 4-H children,
kids or adults.
Number 0269
CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to a committee substitute.
Number 0277
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER made a motion to adopt the committee
substitute. Hearing no objections CSHB 170(HES) was before the
committee.
Number 0310
RAE A. BAGGEN testified next via teleconference from Sitka. She
expressed concerns as she was not an agency person, but an
individual training her own service dog and making sure her dog
would be certified. Some of her questions were answered by Patti
Baumgartner this afternoon. She wanted to make sure the committee
knew that sometimes people with disabilities train their own
service animals.
Number 0365
CHAIRMAN BUNDE presented a scenario where someone went into a
restaurant with a pit bull and said the dog was a service animal in
training. He asked if there were any side-boards on this bill.
Number 0387
MS. ASHE explained that normally the dogs used are labrador, golden
retrievers and German shepards. Normally these animals will have
a halter on them with a sweater-type garment, identifying them as
a service animal in training. She was not familiar with people who
were training their own dog or what breed of dog they had.
Number 0445
CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked if there were any parameters. He asked if
someone could say that they were training a service animal and fall
under the provisions of this bill or would they have to contact
someone first.
Number 0468
MS. ASHE agreed to check on this. She referred to the bill,
"`authorized' means employed by, or serving as a volunteer with, a
school, agency, or other facility that trains service animals;"
She thought that perhaps a person training their own service animal
would fall under other facility.
Number 0497
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said Ms. Baggen brought up an interesting question.
Number 0514
REPRESENTATIVE AL VEZEY had difficulty with the concept of giving
service dogs in training the same status as trained dogs. He
especially questioned this fact when you are talking about a common
carrier. If an animal is trained, they have gone past a certain
standard, but if they're in training then they haven't reached that
standard.
MS. ASHE answered that the committee substitute work draft
authorized the pre-training or training period for the puppies.
This allows them to be out in the public in order to be trained to
be a certified trained animal for a blind, deaf, hard of hearing or
a mentally challenged person.
Number 0578
CHAIRMAN BUNDE explained that, in order to achieve the status as
trained, the dogs need some exposure to similar situations.
MS. ASHE said this is the most valuable part of the training
because this will either make or break the puppy. If the puppy
goes through this part of the training with flying colors or there
are fixable problems, the puppy will go to a school for the blind
or a deaf school in order to be certified with the person that has
the disability. The person and the puppy graduate from this school
after learning the commands and the training. If the puppy fails,
the animal is given back or absorbed into a family as a pet.
Number 0651
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY clarified that this bill says we have a dog in
training and we are expecting the public to provide the training
facility. We're expecting the commercial interests involved; the
stores, the common carriers, to provide free access to this animal.
The bill does say that the owner is responsible for any damage that
the dog does, but that only lasts until their insurance runs out
and then those costs go to the proprietor. He has always
understood that these animals were trained to a very high degree of
competence before they were exposed to public areas. He said he
shouldn't say public because the dogs couldn't tell the difference
between training and the real world. He found it disconcerting
that we're turning the public places into training grounds for
dogs. Having spent a lot of years training dogs, a lot of things
go wrong during training.
Number 0745
MS. ASHE said the program that Alaska uses, the 4-H program, has
their own insurance. The insurance is taken out when these dogs go
home with families, who will provide additional training. She did
not know the rates, but the program buys liability insurance to
cover them if anything should happen. A lot of these puppies have
muzzles on them.
Number 0777
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER did not think this bill would apply to owners
training their own dogs. He felt the only people who could bring
service animals in training to public places would be people
authorized in the bill. Authorized means employed by, serving as
a volunteer with a school, agency or other facility that trains
service animals.
Number 0812
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY asked if "mentally challenged" was defined
somewhere in statute. He said "disabled persons" was used before.
Number 832
MS. ASHE explained that not all disabilities are visible. There
are dogs that are working with people in wheelchairs. These people
are then able to live on their own or with a roommate.
Number 850
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY said he was reasonably sure that there was a
definition of "disabled" in statute. He asked if there a
definition for "physically or mentally challenged" in statute.
Number 0864
MS. ASHE answered that she would find out.
Number 0875
VELMA PAZAR was next to testify via teleconference from Sitka. She
declined to testify at this time.
Number 0887
ROGER HANSEN testified next via teleconference from Fairbanks. He
said he has been training dogs for the last 28 years and hasn't had
any problems, except in accessing some of the state buildings.
Most places in Fairbanks seem to be receptive to the training as
opposed to many of the problems he encountered down in southcentral
Alaska, particularly on the Kenai Peninsula. They worked with the
Fairbanks courthouse in order for them to be let into the building.
He has trained about 25 to 30 of these dogs for the blind as well
as other service animals.
MR. HANSEN explained that he only had two problems in public which
were slightly embarrassing, but there was no damage done. These
animals can't be trained to work in public unless they are in
public. You can't expect the dogs to be brought into the state
fair, unless they have done something similar to it. He said the
Palmer state fair and the ferry are the two worst places with which
he has dealt. The ferry threatened to remove them at the next port
if they spent a little bit of extra of time feeding and caring for
the animals. These animals cost about $50,000 apiece, which is
the value of the animal as an untrained puppy. There is another
$15,000 to $20,000 put into them in training after they leave the
breeder. These are valuable animals and to be left downstairs in
the car deck is a questionable practice.
MR. HANSEN said they continue to have problems training in the
state buildings, particularly in Anchorage and a few times in
Juneau. He and his wife have been denied lodging when they have
been training the dogs. He has had the biggest problems with
lodging when he has been in Alaska.
Number 1058
CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to comments about problems in southcentral
Alaska.
Number 1070
MR. HANSEN discussed shopping trips with the dogs. He clarified
that the dogs wear the harness and sweater and are not taken out in
public until they are ready to go, which is anywhere from about
four to six months. The dogs are capable of doing just about
anything out in public by that age.
MR. HANSEN said he has had a lot of problems with restaurants. He
has found some that would allow them in and he has continued to go
to them. Most major stores do not have a problem with allowing
these service dogs in training as it is written into their
corporate policy.
Number 1132
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked if they were rejected because they had
an abundance of animals or if the animals were being trained one at
a time.
Number 1147
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY stated that there is a definition in CSHB
170(HES) for certified service animal. He referred to Section 2,
and said those animals are not considered certified service
animals, but animals in training. He appreciated the problems and
stated that he had been a professional dog trainer. He felt an
onerous burden was being put on the operators of facilities. There
haven't been any assurances given to the degree of training this
animal has and he was not quite sure that the entire public domain
should be opened up to dog training. He asked if we were talking
about making people let these dogs go in the passenger compartments
of airplanes.
Number 1209
MR. HANSEN answered that he has been on airplanes with these dogs
many times, particularly Alaska Airlines. The only stipulation, a
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regulation, is that they have
to sit in a bulkhead seat.
Number 1229
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY commended him on the working relationship he
has developed with Alaska Airlines. He was not sure that CSHB
170(HES) could replace good working relationships with statute.
Number 1245
MR. HANSEN said it takes a little bit of time, but they can usually
explain to a couple of supervisors and then they allow the dogs on
flights. Alaska Airlines has been exceptional, they send eight
dogs back and forth, from Alaska to the contiguous United States
without a charge. These dogs have accompanied him in small float
planes all the way to 747s and he has never had a problem.
Number 1275
CHAIRMAN BUNDE verified that an untrained puppy, bred from the
service dog field, is worth $50,000.
MR. HANSEN said, in the 1940s, a high quality dog was about the
price of a Cadillac and it is still just about that today. There
are no finer dogs than these.
Number 1301
SUZANNE PRICE testified next via teleconference from Fairbanks.
Accompanying her was Tacona, a service animal in training. Tacona
is one-year-old and has traveled to Los Angeles and Palm Springs.
There really isn't any way to train a dog in the real world without
being in the real world with them. A dog in a kennel will not
learn how to deal with a bus station, how to get on a bus crowded
with people. You can't train a dog how to go to the fair or the
circus without taking him there. Some barriers have been overcome
in Alaska. Normally there aren't any problems in the Lower 48.
MS. PRICE said the biggest problems have been with state types of
facilities; the ferries, the Palmer state fair. The guide dogs for
the blind that they raise are trained, one at a time. Five dogs
that were being brought up on the ferry were for three other puppy
raisers and two adult dogs accompanied them. They don't take the
dogs out in public until they have their basic discipline and
obedience. The animals are not taken into public places until they
are trained to
behave themselves. The training portion of public places has to do
with what the dog needs which is the sights, the sounds, the
smells. If you wait until a dog is fully mature to do that, the
dog will never be accustomed to those things. You need to do those
things when the dogs are young.
MS. PRICE stated that customers have never complained and most
private industries don't have as much of a problem as the state
facilities do. Customers are always very glad to see the dogs.
There are probably ten or twelve dogs being raised for guide dogs
in the state. Dogs learn valuable things. In the malls children
will come up to the dogs and stomp on them, kick them. This
happens quite frequently. The dogs have no reaction to this, they
are trained and bred to be docile and yet energetic. Insurance is
carried through the 4-H office.
Number 1497
LINDA ATHONS, Coordinator, Alaska Guide Dogs Puppy Program,
testified next via teleconference from Kenai. Her program is
administered by Alaska Cooperative Extension. She commented that
like not everyone can be a foster parent, not everyone can be a
guide dog raiser. They carefully screen applicants. Puppies are
placed in homes where people are caring, responsible and committed
to the success of the puppy. There are ten to twelve puppies in
the state being trained at one time; usually in Fairbanks,
Anchorage, Mat-Su area, the Kenai Peninsula and Juneau. The
procedure used to obtain access to an establishment is to telephone
ahead, explain the guide dog puppy program and get permission to
enter the business. This basic component of training is essential
to the puppies because of the things Ms. Price mentioned. When the
puppies are out in public, they wear a jacket which identifies them
as a dog in training.
Number 1578
MS. ATHONS is a guide dog trainer and mentioned that Dixie was with
her and will be returning to the school in a few weeks. She
thanked the local businesses in the Kenai and said that with their
help she would be returning a well mannered and competent dog.
Dixie is ready for her specialized training. She addressed
problems with traveling throughout the state. She has been denied
lodging in Anchorage, dining in Fairbanks and entry into the state
fair at Palmer. She was granted lodging in Fairbanks but was asked
to pay a $70 pet cleanup fee, which was not considered a deposit in
order to stay there. Other problems have occurred when a change in
business occurs. The new employee does not know about the rapport
that has been built.
Number 1651
CHAIRMAN BUNDE commented that a majority of times the trainer is
able to take a service animal in training to public places and
asked if we were looking at exception to this in CSHB 170(HES).
Number 1659
MS. ATHONS said it is those times when it is not convenient to call
ahead, such as times when you're traveling or the management of the
business has changed.
Number 1681
RUBY SCHMIDTBAUER, Alaska Guide Dogs Puppy Program, testified next
via teleconference from Kenai. She was accompanied by Yukon who
has traveled with her to Bethel and down in the Lower 48. These
dogs are very well behaved, they need to be in the public.
Number 1745
CHAIRMAN BUNDE stated that this is the first time CSHB 170(HES) has
been heard and no action would be taken on it today. The bill
would be heard next Tuesday.
Number 1753
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked if this bill had any enemies.
Number 1774
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER mentioned that in his role of training police
dogs he never had any problems going into public places, probably
because as officers they were in uniform and carrying guns.
HB 197 - PUBLIC LIBRARIES
Number 1805
CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced the next item on the agenda was HB 197,
"An Act relating to libraries." This is the first time this bill
has been addressed by the committee, so no action would be taken on
it today.
GEORGE SMITH, Deputy Director, Division of Libraries, Archives and
Museums, Department of Education, explained the development of
public library grant programs offered by the state in order to
explain how HB 197 addresses certain problems. Prior to 1982, the
state offered a grant of up to $1,000 a year to existing public
libraries to purchase library materials. At that time there were
about 55 public libraries, a number which had been stable for a
years. In 1982, during the oil years, the legislature passed a
radically different public library grant program. This program was
meant to encourage the development of more public library outlets
around the state. The grant went from $1,000 a year for public
materials to a basic grant of $5,000 to any public facility
offering a public library service. The entity could receive an
additional $5,000 if it could match local money, on a one to one
basis.
MR. SMITH said as a result of this encouragement, from 1982 to the
present, about 55 new public libraries have been established. Of
those 55, 25 have gone belly up after one to three years of service
because they were not prepared to offer that service. Frankly the
$5,000 basic grant looked very attractive to some of the smaller
communities in the state. They felt they could run a public
library on that amount of money. The fact that the state offered
a basic $5,000, led some to believe that, in fact, you could run a
library on that amount of money and not necessarily have any local
support.
Number 1919
MR. SMITH said, in the early 1990s, a number of the public library
directors started to request that the state library work with them
to draft a public library law. Not only to address the issues that
were coming up regarding the flaws in the grant program, but also
to give at least some minimum definition of what types of services
a public library should provide as it was never addressed in law.
This bill attempts to deal with both of those issues; what are
minimum types of services that a public library should provide and
how to restructure the grant program to encourage local support and
better stability.
Number 1956
MR. SMITH said HB 197 is a funny bill in the sense that part of
this legislation will appear under AS.14.56, which is where the
state library sits in statute and the rest of it will appear in AS
14.29 which are municipal statutes.
MR. SMITH explained that this addresses the minimum services that
a public library should provide. Those services are explained on
page 4 of HB 197. These four areas are; you should establish and
maintain a collection of books and other library materials
available for public loan, you should provide access to
interlibrary loan services, you should provide reading and other
education programs for children and, finally, you should provide
reference information. These set a minimum level on types of
services which should be provided if you are going to be considered
a public library for the state grant program.
Number 2001
MR. SMITH added, the bill also addresses the issue of how to
organize a public library. This area is going to be addressed in
municipal law such as if you are going to have a public library
board, these are the parameters in which you should form it. If
you happen to be a non-profit running a public library, we have
many of those in smaller communities around the state, particularly
outside areas which are organized as cities, then your board
meetings are going to have to be held in public. This is something
that non-profits do not necessarily have to do under law, but this
legislation would require public board meetings.
Number 2032
MR. SMITH referred to the very top of page 4, AS 29.60.140 which
dovetails those non-profit corporations operating public libraries
in unorganized boroughs outside of cities. The state would allow
them to be recognized as entities eligible to provide public
library service as long as they are recognized by the Department of
Community and Regional Affairs as being eligible for grants. This
program already exists for many types of other grants in the state.
It would simply make it an easy way of dealing with entities
outside incorporated areas.
Number 2064
MR. SMITH stated the second major issue, addressed in HB 197, is
located on the second half of page 2, which completely restructures
the grant program. Currently, an entity is allowed a basic $5,000
grant with no local support with an additional $5,000 on a one to
one match. In reality, the grant program has not had enough funds
in it to fully fund the matching part for three or four years. On
a $5,000 local match, the state can match up to $2,000. The
maximum anyone gets anymore is $7,000. This section of the bill
proposes that the basic and matching part be eliminated and
replaced with one system that requires a local effort of at least
$5,000. You would receive a $5,000 grant on a matching basis from
the state, but you would have to have at least $5,000 of local
effort. An entity could get up to $7,000 if you had a one to one
match.
MR. SMITH said the new law addresses an issue which was not
properly addressed in the original law. The original law required
actual dollars if you were going to match. The proposed
legislation would allow in-kind services instead money. This would
recognize the very good, small libraries being run in this state by
volunteers. A dollar value could be attributed to their volunteer
services.
Number 2132
MR. SMITH explained that in the event that the state has another
oil boom and more money could be put into the program, the bill
addresses a second issue. If there were more money, so that there
was more than enough money to provide $7,000 for each library
outlet, additional monies could be distributed on a per capita
basis. This would bring a certain amount of equity to the larger
public libraries in the state. This equity is not being addressed
in the current law. A city of 25,000 who has one public library
outlet would get $7,000 and a town of 500 people would get the same
amount of money. The larger public library directors who have all
looked at the bill have come to a consensus that this is what they
would like to do. They did not want to go to per capita if it
would hurt anyone currently in the program. They want to guarantee
everyone $7,000 before any per capita kick-in came about in the
legislation.
Number 2173
MR. SMITH said there are two other things which are sort of clean-
ups in the bill. These are things the bill drafter thought should
be addressed now as it is a convenient time. He referred to the
very end of page 4, where there is a proposal to sunset two old
public library construction grant programs which have not been
funded since the late 1980s. There is a little money which is
currently being used for construction. The bill proposes a sunset
date of June 30, 1999 which would give the division time to close
out all of those old grants, so there is really no reason to have
that law on the book anymore.
MR. SMITH stated the other thing being addressed is something that
the state has been doing since at least the 1970s, but is not
addressed in law. If you read current law you would assume that
the state is only providing two types of grants; the public library
assistance grant and something called interlibrary cooperation
grants. In fact there is a third type that has been provided for
years, the regional services grant. The one service, under this
grant program, that you would probably be most familiar with is the
books by mail program to people living in the bush. Fairbanks and
Juneau currently provide that service through this grant.
Anchorage provides a statewide interlibrary loan to the smaller
areas. These are regionally oriented, but not in a library
cooperation. This third type of grant program is addressed on
pages 1 and 2 of HB 197.
TAPE 97-23, SIDE B
Number 0000
CHAIRMAN BUNDE verified that the zero fiscal note is because this
continues current library programs.
Number 0008
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked if there were current regulations or
would there be regulations proposed which identify what qualifies
as in-kind.
Number 0018
MR. SMITH explained that current regulations would be redone and an
in-kind definition would be covered in those new regulations. He
felt that any true local support such as volunteer labor, volunteer
electricity and lights for the building, anything like that should
definitely be used, as it is local support. There are probably
about 20 libraries in the state who are given large amounts of
support. In that sense, these changes will benefit them and give
them greater security because they will be eligible for up to
$7,000. There are, perhaps, somewhere between five and ten
libraries in the state who are going to have to seriously look and
determine whether or not they wish to provide some local support
for their libraries or they will have problems.
Number 0121
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if there were any criteria regarding
purchasing of a range of materials from science, novels and
excludes certain items such as pornography when this $5,000 or
$7,000 is granted.
Number 0132
MR. SMITH answered that there are not specific requirements. He
thought the issue of materials should be addressed in the
regulations, which would be written in the future, to encourage
people to spread out their purchases among magazines, educational
videos, books and perhaps on-line services which are certainly
applicable to the medium sized libraries. Even libraries of 1,000
people are now finding that using on-line services to be cost
effective. The program would certainly encourage them to spread
out their purchases.
Number 0190
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN clarified that the types are not specified.
Number 0196
MR. SMITH said they don't because each community addresses
different populations and different needs. The division thought it
was best left up to the communities to decide.
Number 0210
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated there can be a wide variation in costs
for the same book. He asked, when the grants are given, if there
was any stipulation that the books be purchased at the lowest
available cost.
Number 0238
MR. SMITH answered that they don't require the libraries to do
this. Alaska has what many state libraries in the country think is
one of the best libraries for small public libraries. It gives
them information on how to order books and various places which can
provide that service at a very cost effective rate. Secondly, the
state provides workshops and special training to any of the public
libraries who need it. Those are things that the state does to
encourage the libraries to utilize their money. He stated that
libraries often seek advice from the division on how best to
utilize their money.
Number 0286
CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked if the libraries employed a trained librarian
to best meet the needs of the community.
Number 0297
MR. SMITH stated that only 19 of the 85 libraries in the state
serve 3,000 or more people. Alaska is the most rural, in the sense
of the proportion of libraries in the state who serve a very small
population. Over 60 percent of libraries in the state, serve fewer
than 1,000 people. The next closest state to Alaska is Nebraska
with 40 percent. Then it goes way down from there. Very few of
Alaska's public libraries have professionally trained people. The
state library has library development people who are able to give
the type of training to people without the professional training
needed. The state is very aggressive about that and it is in high
demand.
Number 0371
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON appreciated the philosophy about supporting
small libraries and libraries that are developed by the community.
Number 0402
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY asked if we are adding a new section defining
public libraries.
Number 0421
MR. SMITH explained that the original bill, while it allowed grants
to public libraries, never said what they were. This legislation
addresses that particular issue in that it shows which way the
libraries can be legally structured; through municipal law or
through non-profit and what the minimum levels of service need to
be provided.
Number 0468
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY referred to Section 6, where a definition is
given for libraries by the services it is supposed to provide. He
asked if this was a contemporary definition of a library.
Number 0475
MR. SMITH said there is no one consensus on what a public library
is. The definition includes minimum levels of types of services
that the public library felt should be required at the very least.
There are many other things that a public library may do and
certainly the larger the library is, the more diverse it becomes as
to the services it provides. There is a real question among the
librarians that, if you didn't do these things, you shouldn't be
considered a library.
HB 153 - ALIENS AND ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS
Number 0544
CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced the next item on the agenda was HB 153,
"An Act relating to the eligibility of aliens for state public
assistance and medical assistance programs affected by federal
welfare reform legislation; and providing for an effective date."
Number 0580
JAY LIVEY, Deputy Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner,
Department of Health and Social Services, stated that the
administration was here to discuss this issue because when the
federal government made changes to welfare reform, they also
changed the status of legal immigrants with regard to federal
programs as well as federal/state partner programs. Essentially
the state has to address some of these eligibility changes in state
statutes.
Number 0615
MR. LIVEY stated that HB 153 addresses legal immigrants who our
government has welcomed to live in the United States. People who
are illegal, who have never been in the country legally, have never
been eligible for the public assistance kinds of programs that are
going to be discussed today.
MR. LIVEY referred to information in a packet located in the
committee file and said there is a break-down of the kinds of
immigrants which are being talked about. There are about 2,100
legal immigrants enrolled in the various programs. About 1,400 of
those immigrants live in Anchorage, 106 live in Fairbanks, 160 live
in Kodiak. The packet lists demographics of who these individuals
are.
Number 0710
MR. LIVEY referred to a chart with the bottom footer labeled, "FY
98 Budget Overview" and said the programs on the left side of this
chart are the five programs which are affected by either the
federal or the state legislation being proposed. He explained the
first two programs on the list; food stamps and Supplemental
Security Income (SSI) are both federal programs. The Food Stamps
program is administered by the state, but all the benefits and all
the rules are federal. Supplemental security income is the program
of cash assistance that the federal government runs for the
elderly, disabled and blind. It is all federal funds. The part of
the chart that is labeled, "current law" is really the current
federal law. Most legal aliens are no longer eligible for either
one of those benefits. The federal law made that change and there
is nothing the state can do about it.
Number 0750
MR. LIVEY referred to Medicaid and the Alaska Temporary Assistance
Program (ATAP) which are joint federal/state programs. These
programs are state administered, but the federal government gives
the state a match; money to help run those programs. For those
programs, most legal aliens, under the current federal law, are
barred for five years if they came into the country as of August
22, 1996. There is a state option regarding whether or not the
state wants to allow legal aliens, who are already in the country
as of August 22, 1996, to continue their eligibility.
Number 0796
MR. LIVEY referred to Adult Pubic Assistance (APA) which is a
state-only program. The state controls the eligibility for this
program and HB 153 proposes a similar eligibility requirement. If
a legal immigrant was in the country as of August 22, 1996, they
would be eligible. August 22, 1996, is a magical date because that
is when the federal welfare reform law passed. If you are in the
country as of August 22, 1996, then you could receive APA if you
were eligible. If you come into this country after August 22,
1996, you would be barred from APA for five years.
Number 0833
MR. LIVEY referred to a page in the packet headed, "FY 97 Budgeted
Expenditures," the middle chart, under "Individual Impact on Legal
Immigrants" the first chart listed as, "Benefits for Blind/Disabled
and Elderly." He explained what the impact of HB 153 would be to
some of these people. In Alaska the eligibility for SSI is done by
the Department of Education (DOE) through the Disabilities
Determination Unit. They have a contract with the federal Social
Security Administration to do determinations. If you are found to
be disabled this means that you have a problem which prevents you
from working and supporting yourself or you're blind. Before
August 22, 1996, you would receive $484 under SSI, a direct federal
cash grant to you. You received $70 in food stamps, $362 in APA.
Adult Public Assistance is a state only program, but it piggybacks
onto SSI. If you are eligible for SSI, then you automatically get
this $362 benefit and are then eligible for Medicaid.
MR. LIVEY referred to the far column, "Under Proposed State
Legislation," and explained that if your date of arrival in the
country was before or after August 22, 1996, under HB 153, you
would not receive any food stamps or SSI benefits because they are
both federal programs. You would still receive the $362 in APA and
you would still continue to receive Medicaid. Under HB 153, which
grandfathers people who were eligible as of August 22, 1996, there
still is a significant loss in benefit for those blind and disabled
individuals.
MR. LIVEY explained that there is a similar calculation for the
Alaska Temporary Assistance Program recipients. Generally, HB 153
grandfathers in all those individuals who were on ATAP, who are on
Medicaid or APA as of the passage of the federal bill, August 22,
1996, and bars for five years any new immigrants from those
programs.
Number 0990
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY asked the significance of five years.
Number 0995
MR. LIVEY answered that five years was just the amount of time in
the federal law that these individuals were banned after August 22,
1996.
Number 1002
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY clarified that we are just piggybacking onto
the federal law. He asked if the federal law cuts them off right
now.
Number 1010
MR. LIVEY said the federal law gives a state the option to continue
the Medicaid and the ATAP programs which is the old AFDC. However,
because of the way the state laws are written, there is a different
result. Under the state's Medicaid law, you have to actually be
listed in the statute to be eligible for the benefit. In that
case, Representative Vezey is correct that if the state doesn't
actually write those people into the statute then even those
individuals who arrive in the country prior to August 22, 1996,
would no longer be eligible. For the ATAP recipients, the statute
is written so that you are essentially eligible unless you are
written out of the statute. The ATAP individuals would still be
eligible even if this bill didn't pass.
Number 1062
CHAIRMAN BUNDE clarified that it was still necessary for someone
who wished to immigrate to have a sponsor. He asked if those
people, grandfathered in and eligible for adult public assistance,
should then be the ward of the sponsor.
Number 1084
MR. LIVEY answered that a lot of those individuals had sponsors
when they originally came into the country, but for one reason or
another the sponsorship has ended. The new federal rules state
that when the five year ban passes and when we start looking at
applications again if there is a sponsor, there are some new
deeming provisions in the law which will apply. Deeming provisions
mean how much of the sponsor's income do you deem available to the
individual in terms of eligibility.
Number 1120
CHAIRMAN BUNDE stated that even though the sponsorship exists, it
is really form rather than function.
Number 1133
CHRIS ASHENBRENNER, Program Officer, Policy and Program
Development, Division of Public Assistance, Department of Health
and Social Services, said the one thing that is different about
sponsor affidavits under the new law is that there are legally
enforceable instruments under the new law. Under the old law, you
could sponsor an immigrant into this country and when the immigrant
asked for help, the sponsor could say no. Under the new law there
is a legal way to get that help.
Number 1170
CHAIRMAN BUNDE presented a scenario of someone who is a legal
immigrant after August 22, 1996, who becomes disabled and asked if
they were no longer eligible for assistance.
Number 1188
MR. LIVEY answered that if they arrive in the country after August
22, 1996, and became disabled, they would essentially not be
eligible for SSI ever, they would not be eligible for APA or
Medicaid until after they were in the country for five years.
Number 1206
CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked, in practical terms, what happens.
Number 1212
MR. LIVEY answered, what happened with welfare reform was that the
states got a lot of cost shifts. This is just one aspect of it,
you can talk about SSI for alcoholics and drug abusers, changes in
food stamps. There are other big impacts as a result of welfare
reform of which this is just one. It is a huge cost shift to the
states and frankly, to some degree, to the municipalities. Suzanne
Goodrich of Catholic Community Services would probably say the same
thing. The department has not proposed, in the Governor's budget
this year, any special dollars to take care of that group of people
who are coming into the country and will no longer be eligible for
these programs. It may be that in a few years we will have to do
that because the community resources won't be able to handle all
those people.
Number 1275
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY asked if immigrants were allowed into the
country who were disabled.
Number 1293
CHAIRMAN BUNDE felt that if they had refugee status they would be
allowed into the United States.
Number 1315
KRISTEN BOMENGEN, Assistant Attorney General, Human Services
Section, Civil Division, Department of Law, said the immigration
law in itself is very complex and there are a number of different
categories under which people can qualify to come into the country.
Some of these categories would be as asylees refugees. She was not
aware of any specific prohibition that would keep someone out
because they were disabled, nor would those individuals necessarily
be disqualified from receiving federal SSI. There is a group of
immigrants that are accepted from these rules and could, in fact,
qualify for SSI benefits and states are required to provide
benefits to them.
Number 1347
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked if this bill had any enemies.
Number 1350
MR. LIVEY did not believe so.
Number 1365
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said there are people who would like to testify and
would allow those people to testify when this bill is heard again.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business to conduct, CHAIRMAN BUNDE
adjourned the meeting of the House Health, Education and Social
Services Standing Committee at 4:24 p.m.
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